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B&W Print Edition
Let slip the hounds of war!
Make martial combat more interesting with the Path of War, a maneuver-based combat system designed and playtested to work side-by-side with all of the standard classes.
Path of War offers new base classes, feats, archetypes, and much more. Want to use the maneuver-based combat system with your standard Pathfinder Roleplaying Game classes like the fighter or rogue? Feats allow you to do just that.
Now martial characters get to have fun, too, with the Path of War!
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I loved the Tome of Battle, and this gave me what I wanted. With a lot of options, this manages to make things fun and has a ton of support for making melee attacks more than just rolling and boring. Totally worth checking out if you want to up your melee game, but it's going to basically screw over anything core, so only use it if the whole group is.
Since so many reviewers have given this an excellent treatment, I'll be brief.
As a GM and rarely a player; I am always looking for ways to provide meaningful options for my players. This resource gives numerous options to martial characters that allow them to fill varying roles in the party without the need for multi-classing.
Each of the three base classes are also provided with archetypes that can help change them in meaningful and sometimes drastic ways. The feats and prestige classes also help other classes get something out of this new resource.
As a last note; in which does not effect my evaluation of the content in the product, just the presentation of it. The book is wonderfully laid out, but I did notice that on at least one occasion a heading for a new section is at the very bottom of a page, and the text for that section is on the next page. This made it difficult to spot the section I was looking for when the headings were on a separate page from the entries. This is a rather small complaint though.
This is my second book from the Dreamscarred Press, an I must say it looks as good as the Ultimate Psionics i bought earlier.
I have had generous GMs letting me play these classes in their campains and I must say that I am impressed of how well they feel when I play them.
I have a warlord who feels like a badass daredevil, you have your manuevers and when you have used them you do something crazy (sometimes not that crazy though)to get them back, like tumbling between a badguys legs or stabbing him in the eye. The class itself let martials fill up other roles in the party then just striker. You can buff your teammates, debuff your enemies as if you had spells but you still have the no spell feel of it.
When i comes to the other class I have tried, that is the Warder. As many of you probably know the system is not that friendly on the MMO style of tanking, ther is no way to keep the enemies on you. Well now there is. The Warder ha many abilities that let him give enemies penalties to attack others instead of him. Making him protect his fellow adventurers even if the enemy doesn't attack him. That combined with the defensive manuevers the warder gets through the Iron Tortoise discipline. The warder is not as interesting when it comes to recovering manuevers though, you do it by setting up a combat patrol. While useful it doesn't have the same flare as the warlord in my eyes.
When I comes to feats I think they made a good job making manuevers available for every one and they have some feats that really add to what I have been missing as a player, like Martial Power, a combat expertise/power attack alternative that trades hit bonus for Temp HP.
I have looked at Prestige classes and so far they haven't interested me enough to go for them, for now I am content and really happy where my character is going with just the base classes, but they look interesting enough to get som love more down the road.
Balance-wise though, these classes are stronger then the fighter, but with this book so is the fighter. These martials aren't the hack and slash some paizo martials are. These Martials are way more fun and you feel like a more important part of the party when you play them.
Malwing — Apr 8, 2015, 11:58 amThis is one of those products that has already been discussed to death so I'll focus on my general impressions instead of a deep analysis.
I was not originally sold on the idea of Path of War. Looking at it's predecessor, the Book of 9 Swords, the whole idea seemed too much like Vancian Martials which turned me off from the concept of a system of spells/maneuvers for mundane classes. I was even more put off by the idea of new, more powerful, classes eating up the niche of mundane martial classes.
So what sold me? Nothing actually. I have little experience with GMing these characters and classes so I'm still waiting for options that aren't just a feats for paizo martials to really get in on the action. What sold me on actually purchasing was that the classes are actually pretty fun to play, (I purchased the Stalker separately before buying the whole thing) and there are expansions on the horizon.
There are three classes. The Stalker which while annoyingly gets a ki pool at first level while the monk gets his at 4th is a fun class. Its kind of a ninja with maneuvers. There is the Warder who's most interesting class feature is a built in Combat Patrol effect giving it an aura of tanking. Then there's the Warlord, the most smack happy of the trio who probably has the most proactive means of regaining maneuvers. They are sweet classes although I'm not too in favor of the Stalker getting a Ki pool and maneuvers but it has about the same accuracy of a Rogue so I guess that knocks him down a peg.
We also get some new feats. Some of the feats are pretty game changing, like the generic dex to damage feat. People will take it even if they don't touch the classes or maneuvers in the book.
The maneuver system itself is less cumbersome than I imagined. Sure I was upset that maneuvers are per encounter abilities at their default but the Inquisitor class forced me to define what the beginning and end of combat was so it didn't hurt that much. There are some weird ones that lock you into some skills if you want to dedicate yourself to using it effectively but the maneuvers functioned well enough and didn't feel completely like spells of another name. Also combined with the new classes they aren't all that powerful, especially if you already strive to buff your martials with other third party things, and really especially since they can't really rely on anything that martials use for power. In the end they do more stuff and less damage, or at least that's how I've been building them. Don't hinge on ALL the maneuvers to make logical sense though. You can explain them away in the same way you can explain how a guy can practice martial arts so hard he shoots lasers from his hands so some points aren't for everyone but it's not an awkwardness that can't be overcome with rule of cool.
The prestige classes are, I didn't read them.
There are a series of feats for other martials to have up to six levels of maneuvers at the cost of up to six feats. Fair but I don't feel like this exactly helps other martials come up to par in versatility and just converts them to a state that's still less valuable than either not taking maneuvers at all or just taking a maneuver class. That said taking one or two of the feats is worth it for the stances.
I forgot, the Maneuvers are divided into different schools of fighting which is my favorite part of them. Each style is distinct and interesting giving a lot of flavor for what kind of maneuvers you're doing.
Overall I'll give this five stars. I felt awkward about it at the start and I refused to leave normal martials in the dust but I liked my play experiences and it flows pretty well.
The final version of the first Path of War book clocks in at 165 pages, 1 page front cover, 1 page editorial, 1 page ToC, 1 page SRD, 1 page advertisement, leaving us with a massive 160 pages of content, so let's take a look!
A short lesson in history: Back in the 3.X-days, there was one particular book that divided the fans of D&D like few before - the "Tome of Battle", more commonly known as the "Book of 9 Swords", henceforth abbreviated Bo9S. This book took martial characters and provided choices for them - somewhat akin to spellcasting, with the target goal of making them more interesting. And the book at once succeeded and failed spectacularly. Why? Well, first of all, the respective disciplines of martial traditions were not properly balanced among each other. Secondly, the book utilized per-encounter mechanics, which broke in-game immersion and logic in ways most obtrusive. Thirdly, the mechanics, while innovative, utilized a whole array of options that could easily be broken without even trying. It happened by accident once in my game. The mechanic to regain maneuvers of two of the classes was sub-optimal to say the least. So, after some trepidation and a unanimous vote, my group banned the book.
Fast forward to 2013/14 -Dreamscarred Press releases the first supplements of Path of War, the spiritual successor to Bo9S, and after a highly controversial review, actually listens and includes improvements - but how many? Well, let's check this one out!
In case you're not familiar with the basic premise of PoW - the supernatural, extraordinary and spell-like special tricks these classes may execute, their "spells", if you will, would be called maneuvers. Each character has a so-called initiator-level, which, much like a caster-level, influences the power of many of the options herein. Maneuvers are grouped in different categories: Stances offer passive benefits and can be maintained indefinitely - unlike all the other maneuver types, which would be strikes, boosts and counters. The names of these categories are pretty self-explanatory, but for completeness' sake: Boosts provide benefits, buffs if you will. Counters can usually be initiated as immediate actions to react to foes/actions. Strikes would be the active, in your face attacks.
Maneuvers are grouped in different levels, ranging from 1 - 9, and in disciplines, which can be considered schools. Each martial class receives a certain list of available disciplines to choose their maneuvers from and has its own way of replenishing maneuvers.
In my reviews of the constituent pdfs, I have analyzed the respective 3 base classes Stalker, Warlord and Warder in detail, hence I will not go into the finer points here - also to avoid bloating the review further. As short summaries - Stalkers are the maneuver-dual-wield rogue/assassin-style class and quite focused on crit-fishing. Warlords are the fighting commanders that command amidst the troops and Warders would be the dedicated tanks that draw the foe's ire and keep their allies safe while they take the brunt of the foe's wrath.
Stalkers receive ki and have two options for the regaining of maneuvers - 1 maneuver for a standard action, or wis mod, min 2, for a full-round action - neither provokes AoOs, which is good. However, what still irks me on a design point of view - the latter option also allows the stalker to move his base speed AND receive a +4 insight bonus to AC AND add deadly strike as bonus damage to the next attack/maneuver he executes. This would be a significant bonus and imho one that would have been better off as a scaling benefit - i.e. the tying of class level to the AC-bonus granted. Why? Because playtest showed that, especially at low levels, regaining maneuvers can be used to make the stalker a rather great blocker when regaining maneuvers, when a true strategy/decision-making process behind regaining maneuvers could have provided so much more interesting decisions in combat. At higher levels, stalkers may also use ki to exchange readied maneuvers for other maneuvers, but since that one is based on a resource that is finite, I do like it.
Now I mentioned crit-fishing - that's where deadly strikes come in - each time, stalkers score a crit against a target, they deal bonus damage against said target for a limited array of rounds. Weapons with higher crit multipliers receive more deadly strike bonus damage. Ki can also be expended to activate deadly strikes, which renders especially high crit multiplier weapons powerful for the stalkers using them. The issue of stacking deadly strike durations has thankfully been cleaned up - while I'm never going to like the mechanic, it now works as intended and thus has my blessing.
The same goes for combat insight, which would be a passive tree of abilities that allows him to add wis-mod to a variety of rolls, scaling with the level. It is my joy to report that the broken regaining of expended ki that failed the kitten-test in the original stalker has been eliminated - kudos! Now if you're like me and have had some experience with multiple attributes being applied to the same roll, you'll realize that both combat insight and some stalker talents allow for some significant stacking of powers. The same fine-tuning goes with the option to regain ki via maneuvers - a daily limit with a HD-cap prevents abuse. Alas, melee strikes at range and ignoring all AoOs provoked by movement for wis-mod rounds via ki still are nasty. While I'm still not sold on the Stalker, this marks still a significant improvement over the first iteration of the class.
The Warder's regaining of maneuvers does not feature a bonus like the stalker's. Warder's marking, based on dealing damage to the target and thus forcing it to attack the warder at penalty still feels to me like it could use a saving throw - like the grand challenge, which high-level warders can execute to debuff all opponents within 30 feet as marked. It should be noted for posterity's sake that this one still feels rather strong as a free action to me. The saves of the class become rather broken at fourth level - int-mod to ref-saves, and initiative in lieu of dex-mod for ref-saves - this makes their saves better than those of the monk. That being said, I'm very glad the designers have made the extended defense ability actually work. Now one obvious glitch is still here - high-level warders may deflect blows that would reduce them below 0 hp to armor/shield, wrecking the items instead - I generally love this ability, but the lack of a caveat for indestructible items and artifacts is a bit nasty. Oh well, since the ability is resolved via the broken condition, at least the artifact can't be repaired and maintains its condition. I guess. Still, would have preferred the ability to properly specify what happens in such a case. The capstone of the class still doesn't work - "unable to die from hit point damage" still is pretty opaque - I *assume* this translates to still receiving the damage, but simply not dying, correct? But what once the ability elapses? Is a warder below 0 hp staggered? Or does the capstone grant immunity to hp-damage while in effect? The capstone, alas, still is not anywhere near operative.
The Warlord class is perhaps my favorite from the PoW-classes, mainly because I consider the maneuver-replenishment of the warlord the most interesting - it works via gambits, i.e. actions that provide a bonus upon success alongside the replenishment of maneuvers, while imposing minor penalties on a failure. The problem here with the original warlord still exists - while the gambit-system per se is cool, its fine-tuning is badly broken. A warlord charges a foe - if he hits the target with the first attack after the charge, all allies in range receive warlord's + cha-mod to damage for their next attack. It should be noted that the penalty for failing a gambit is only a -2 penalty to all d20-rolls. Conceivably, a warlord with cha 20 could grant his allies a+5 damage boost at first level - without daily limits. Shooting into melee (not hard with precise shot) can penalize the foe via another gambit by cha-mod to AC etc. Remember, that is the type of action used to regain maneuvers. I still consider the system per se damn cool, but the math and risk/reward-ratio behind the maneuver-regaining is wonky at best. Worse, the warlord can still charge kittens to grant allies damage-bonuses against actual foes or shoot kittens to grant them temporary hit points. On the plus-side, bonus-types have been cleared up and now are actually properly codified.
The warlord's presence, gained at 2nd level, is still the equivalent of a level 15 bardic performance, perhaps better. Yeah. Still broken as all hell. For a detailed comparison, please check my warlord-review. It should also be noted that the ambiguities of their effects still are here.
The new skill to identify martial maneuvers still lacks information which, if any non-PoW-classes should receive it as a class skill. Among the feats, thankfully, the utterly broken Defensive Web has died the fiery death it deserved. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for tactical rush, which allows you to 1/encounter move your movement as a swift action. Victorious Recovery still can be kitten'd as well, though these latter two feats still are within the parameters of what can be considered okay. What is not okay would be extended mark - ONE feat, no prereqs, double the duration of all the warder's armiger marks. Yeah. You'd have to be an idiot to NOT take this - it makes it highly unlikely that ANY enemy ever can stand long enough to see the mark go away.
Now I won't be redundant and blabber on about the feats, instead going ahead to the maneuvers themselves, all right? We kick off the maneuvers after an explanation of terminology etc. with a whole new discipline, the evil-alignment exclusive Black Seraph. Based on intimidate, it is an offensive, deadly discipline - that allows you to intimidate kittens to heal yourself as a supernatural ability. Remember, maneuvers can be regained infinitely. This means FREE INFINITE healing as long as any PC or kitten is around. What about negating attacks with intimidate? Doesn't sound so bad? Well, look for items, spells and class features that net bonuses to intimidate. Yeah. Here I'll go on a tangent - the mechanic to use a skill-check versus an attack roll or another skill-check is a 3.X remnant. It was broken back then, it is worse in Pathfinder - less skills, less expensive skill-boost items translate to easier buffed skills. Add to that the mathematical convention of d20-roll versus fixed value instead of 3.X's d20 vs. d20 and we have an assortment of maneuvers herein that simply do not work smoothly in actual play. It's the square-shaped chicken in a vacuum issue and an unnecessary relic of an older system that is only here as a remnant of the proverbial balance ruins on which PoW was built. I really wish the designers had just shrugged off abilities like this instead of re-introducing what never worked well back into PFRPG. Need an example? Veiled Moon is tied to Stealth, now look at the ways you can buff that through the roof. Yeah. One of the more powerful maneuvers of that one switches positions with the target if the creature fails perception versus your stealth. As an immediate action. No save. This is a nigh-guaranteed insta-kill for just about every character, especially casters, who has not maxed out perception AND is buffed to cope with it. Before breaking the skill check with items.
Back to Black Seraph: What about a level 3 boost that nets you a 10-foot movement sans AoOs and adds +2d6 damage "that ignores damage reduction" - I assume, only the bonus damage ignores ALL DR? Why not tie it to specific types of DR? It should be noted that per se, the discipline offers some nice options that combine strikes with debuffs. However, I do not get why none of the strikes receive the [pain]-descriptor - at least the debuff conditions obviously are pain effects and should not apply to those immune to it. This is especially odd since other disciplines like Veiled Moon take quite some care to apply the proper [teleportation] descriptors. Oddly, this oversight also applies to quite a few other disciplines.
The Broken Blade discipline still features a strike based on a fixed acrobatics DC of 15 that allows the initiator to move 10 ft towards or away from a foe sans provoking AoOs and attacking as well with bonus damage - why not use the existing rules to move in threatened squares with a bonus? DC 15 becomes ridiculous rather fast. Worse, more often than not, these mechanics completely ignore already existing ways to produce an effect , producing redundancy and ambiguity of the results of actions that simply wasn't necessary. Why tie the success of a trip executed by a martial artist to a ref-save instead of CMD? No, seriously. Yes, I am aware that this does not break anything. But the devil's in the details - dwarves, for example, no longer receive their stability bonus to this save, falling just as easy, perhaps easier than less stable foes. This is a harmless example, chosen intentionally to illustrate the point - PFRPG as a system features quite an array of tied mechanics and if you ignore an established way to doing things, you necessarily have to take these into account. PoW, unfortunately, often simply does not do this, instead creating its own context and thus leads to more confusion than necessary. Next time the dwarf gets tripped, he's eligible to ask whether his stability bonus does apply. and if not, WHY? And yes, I am aware of spells doing similar things. But spells are not strikes - I will get on that later on.
For now, let's just say that Path of War does not need these wonky mechanics - there are a vast plethora of examples in this very book that prove that neither the system, nor the respective disciplines needed these relics to work, which renders the maintaining of them all the more puzzling. Golden Lion would be such an example - apart from one single counter (skill vs. atk - see above) the discipline works conspicuously well without these blunders and is generally superior to the White Raven that spawned it. Iron tortoise, which renders shields actually damn cool and useful, utilizes the compared atk-rolls in counters and shield bashes, but that one's at least not as bad as skill vs. atk. The level 6 counter that negates an attack OR nets you DR 20 if you fail your counter-attempt still feels too nasty for me - its bigger brother has been nerfed down to DR 40/ on a failure, but still -even within PoW, that's massive. Where math goes into a corner to cry would be burnished shell - atk + shield bonus versus incoming targeted spell against CASTER-LEVEL Check - if you win, you negate the spell. Weapon Focus (ray)? Pff, wasted that feat, my friend. This one counter neuters all targeted spells utterly. Even within PoW's design paradigm, broken.
Primal Fury can be quoted as an example on how disciplines can work without (many) of the aforementioned relics - only one counter uses the skill-check nonsense. One particular counter deserves special mentioning here as one of my favorites - it allows the initiator to attack a weapon that has hit him - if the weapon is destroyed by the attack, the damage is mitigated. Elegant, cool, works perfectly within the established context of PFRPG-rules - why not utilize mechanics like this one more often?
Why do we instead get strikes that use e.g. sense motive to attack (against AC) AND deal double damage. The issues with Scarlet Throne persist. The second new discipline would be Silver Crane, the good equivalent to the evil Black Seraph. Conversely, Silver Crane's Blessing suffers from the same kitten-test failing infinite healing, with the restriction that practitioners of Silver Crane would require evil infernal kittens with damned souls to maintain their good alignment. If those can be arranged for, they may heal allies as well, though! Yay! Infinite healing for the whole group! -.-
Part II of my review is post 42 of the product discussion.
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